Suggested by 
Jack McMackin
about 2 years ago
Pickleball is a great pretense for healthy exercise, socializing with friends, meeting new people, and visiting new places. But without intentional effort and design, we all tend to cluster in small pickleball bubbles, typically correlated with socio-economics. How could we use pickleball as a tool to break out of our bubbles and empower community & economic development?
Pickleball is exploding in popularity, with an estimated 10M+ players last year.
New Idea
Are you interested in addressing this Unmet Need?
Patrick Tweel
💡
GW
Greg Wolff
💡
JL
Jon Lee
💡
Hunter Yeagley
💡
SC
Shawn Carbonell, MD, PhD
💡
+ Recommend someone to be a founder
Are you interested in addressing this Unmet Need?
Patrick Tweel
💡
GW
Greg Wolff
💡
JL
Jon Lee
💡
Hunter Yeagley
💡
SC
Shawn Carbonell, MD, PhD
💡
+ Recommend someone to be a founder
Senior Product Manager @ Ramsey Solutions
This is very interesting, I am seeing a lot of city and county projects building pickleball course in my area (Nashville, TN).
VP, Global Product Management @ Forrester
Just found out about this Pickleball app that's apparently starting to catch on in Europe: https://raqt.com/
It's primarily for tournaments, but it also has capabilities to "find and connect with your pickleball friends." The main app used in North America for tournaments -- PickleballTournaments.com (and now PickleballBrackets.com) -- is completely disconnected from the apps that are used for leagues, to set up casual games, find places to play, etc. ... so it's interesting to see an app that (at least attempting to) pull those disparate parts of pickleball together.
Seeking a role as a Minister of Innovation
I have never played pickleball but I would love it because I love playing similar sports such as badminton and it is a community building game. In building a startup I could imagine the problems that you may encounter. I just read an article about the noise level that some people do not like because of pickleball. It was an interesting article and they also shared some solutions such as a noise reducing mechanism within the ball and playing games in old malls. While we are building that s startup, it would be wise to consider some of these threats and opportunities.
Article: https://www.mensjournal.com/news/pickleball-courts-disturbing-residents-noise
Co-Founder @ Maet
Hi all,
I’m a Gen-Z Co-Founder building a gamified marketplace for amateur sports - like pickleball, basketball, and soccer. We are focused on how we can connect these sport competition organizers to athletes with a universal rating system for skill.
Coming from the Gen-Z perspective, we are focused on making this rating feel like a video game, so that it can engage people in authentic real-world connection. Many of our peers are stuck in an unhealthy cycle of virtual work, social media, and online relationships. Our mission is to counteract that - thinking how we can build tech that is engaging/fun, but promotes healthy in-person relationships at the same time.
This thread has been super interesting to read for me. While we are a team that has the tech expertise and user empathy to build this product - we are trying to gain all the knowledge we can about how the pickleball industry operates. Our primary focus has been basketball and soccer to date - but pickleball’s accessibility makes it a compelling sport to focus on.
Jack and I have talked about the common tendency for pickleball events to revolve around a well-known “community leader” - but would be interested in hearing thoughts from Jeff, Greg, and Christine with your convos on coordination.
One interesting tradeoff I find with these convos is between authenticity and scale.
It’s impossible to establish deep relationships with many, many people due to our constraints as humans.
Yet, to discover a great community niche we may have to have access to a scalable tool that helps us narrow things down.
How might we develop scalable solutions to create these introductions through pickleball - yet still provide a pathway for authenticity and community growth? Greg made a great comparison that I liked with matchmaking and dating apps. Yet often, these dating apps prioritize this scalable, swipe-able volume of relationships (as it's best for their business) and don’t do enough to develop the authenticity. How can we do better through athletics?
Interested in hearing your thoughts!
Executive Director @ UnaMesa Association
Kekoa, thanks for posting.
I'm sure you are already familiar with the many existing (competing) pickleball rating systems. [DUPR being the one that's been most actively promoted .. and growing the community is definitely part of their mission.]
Personally I'm very interested in building systems/technology that foster healthy in-person connections. It's a difficult question -- what role does/can technology play in fostering these relationships? Is it a rating system based on skills?
You point out the role that "community leaders" play (think of them as "attractors" in the social network space). In athletics we have multiple different types of social network "attractors" teams, sports clubs in europe and elsewhere, bowling leagues in the US, etc. One way to approach your question of how to achieve scale with locality & authenticity in relationships is to reframe it as a question of how to foster social networks with these kinds of attractors (or strongly connected local networks) where everyone feels they belong to at least one such group.
Pickleball seems uniquely suited to support the creation of such systems - it's accessible across a much wider range of age/skill/demographics than most participation sports and it already has a culture of "open play."
executive assistant @ Platform Venture Studio
Solution to needing more courts and makes something from these "nothing" malls scattered across the landscape of cities.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/picklemall-hopes-to-bring-pickleball-to-a-mall-near-you-203039745.html
Founder, MD @ PivotNorth Capital
i played pickleball for the first time this week. I see what all the hype is about now
executive assistant @ Platform Venture Studio
Tim, I knew you would love it! This makes me do my happy dance.
VP, Global Product Management @ Forrester
While pickleball does have a low bar to entry -- certainly when it comes to cost and athletic ability -- what I think is the bigger problem (and opportunity) is the amount of work it takes to actually play with a group of people on a regular basis, or "break in" to a pre-existing group ... and how these challenges just reinforce the "cluster in small pickleball bubbles" reality.
One group I'm a part of uses GroupMe to organize Monday evening play at the same place every week. We use public courts, but it's a private GroupMe group, so you need to know someone on the list to get you on the list (and even then only the administrator can add you). Every Monday there's a flurry of messages with people saying that they can play or can't play that night, some asking what time people are getting there or how late they're staying, some asking whether we have courts reserved. Court reservation happens through a separate system run by the town -- and then we have a Google Spreadsheet to track who's reserved what courts on what days/times. Even if you follow the (many) messages, it's not obvious who'll be there any evening.
Another group I'm a part of uses text threads. Play is more ad-hoc, and rather than "we have a bunch of courts reserved so anyone can show up," the messages are usually organized around trying to get an "even" number (4, 8, etc.) to allow for continuous games without anyone sitting. And that group plays at different locations, so even if we can get 4 people together, then there's the challenge of agreeing on a place to play and making sure we can get reservations (or chance it by showing up and trying to walk on).
These are "you need to know someone" groups, so they reinforce the "we all tend to cluster in small pickleball bubbles" problem.
There are more "public" groups -- one set of people use PlayTime Scheduler, and they post to a local pickleball-focused Facebook group when they are organizing things. Another group I know uses Meetup. But even then, you're still dealing with multiple systems, you don't know the level of people playing, and even if you do go and meet some people you like to play with, you have to exchange numbers (and probably resort to text threads) to try to arrange future games.
And this problem is compounded when you're traveling -- yes, you can do it, but finding a game/group in a new city takes a lot of intentional effort: Where to play? (look on PicklePlay or Places 2 Play); When do people play? Can I join in? What level/type of play is it? (PlayTime Scheduler, or more likely posting in a Facebook group); Do I need to pay or sign up in advance? (yet another system). As pickleball is becoming more popular when on vacation or traveling for business (see https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/16/travel/pickleball-travel.html) this will only grow.
Pickleball is a great way to meet others, both in your town or as you travel, but there are a lot of hoops to go through to actually play, and certainly even more to break out of your normal bubble and meet new people.
Executive Director @ UnaMesa Association
Jeff,
Very much agree that coordinating play is not a solved problem. I also appreciate your observations regarding the "courts per capita" research.
Some friends/fellow players and I have explored a few approaches to play coordination and have roughed out a design for the kind of system we'd like. If there's interest, I'd be happy to get deeper into the details and hopefully have some serious discussions about the feasibility of building/deploying a better system.
In our view, play coordination is a bit like a dating or matchmaking app -- you want to get the "right" people together at the right place and the right time. Imagine a system that recommends games/matches given your constrains and enables quick confirmation then gathers feedback after the match.
Such a system should benefit all stakeholders.
There's obviously differences between coordinating play and dating app and a fair amount of complexity that's beyond the scope of this message (setting up matches in advance vs immediate play, public vs private courts, "rec" vs tournament play). Again, happy to get deeper into those issues but for the moment just heartily agreeing with you that there is an opportunity and that the right solution could generate a good deal of returns on both the financial and social capital.
-Greg
Director of Talent Acquisition @ formerly with Activision/MSFT
Jeff and Greg, Hallo! I am new to the platform, but I am so excited to see so much discussion here around Pickleball. Happy to find this outlet, so I can stop endlessly annoying friends and family! I’ve been playing for nearly 3 years, and I just keep getting more and more excited by it. PB is already creating communities for health, social interaction, and business development, and more will definitely come.
The way I see this, we have two different, but interrelated problem sets for PB players, and both are really begging for great solutions.
The first is finding and booking court space. Courts are still scarce vs demand, and that problem looks to be growing as more players come into the sport. While courts are being built, they are unevenly available depending on where you live, and a random mix of public and private. So just solving for courts in your community can be difficult to unravel as a new player. In the San Francisco Bay area where I live, the volume of dedicated PB courts is incredibly low (vs multipurpose sharing with tennis or basketball or a public community center). Indoor courts are virtually nonexistent around here. Rainy season was a real problem this year! So, finding, accessing, booking this resource is an obvious problem set and opportunity. Just being able to reserve a court and know you will play a great game with like-minded and leveled players, would be a HUGE upgrade.
The second issue as you mention in your posts is finding the right people to play with. We have a wide variety of segments of players looking for play options, and finding “your people” is a big challenge. This is not only true for beginners.
We have experienced vs new players. We also see a lot of conflict over competitive players who are focused on advancement and tournament competition vs social recreational players who seek a more open friendly social environment and style of play. Those two groups clash on public courts daily over how to play, and how to share court space.
You have people who want to book private courts to play with their established groups. You have others who love the walk-on/Pick-up game model we see on public courts. You have a fast-growing college campus club sport, Juniors coaching, or senior citizens who might all have different needs as well. How do I make sure I’m playing with people who are at my skill level and who have the same type of play in mind? What if I am traveling and what to find a place and people to play with?
If you follow the pro players and the amateur tournament players, the software tools they are using for tournament brackets and player skill ratings are also not great. (OMG the online complaining about tournaments!) I have used those firsthand in a couple of amateur tournaments and yikes. There is so much room for improvement to those tools. This might be problem set #3, actually.
A social software solution could be super helpful to people looking to find their type of players and available locations. Particularly if that social piece could somehow be married to a court access solution. Right now I see a lot of players and local clubs/groups, doing grassroots organizing in Facebook groups (FB tracks with the current demo) or texting/ WhatsApp groups etc. Not much action on Discord, but that kind of matches up with current demographics too. But a smoother online community solution could be very valuable.
Executive Director @ UnaMesa Association
Thanks Christine (and Jeff).
I agree with your comments that coordinating play is not a solved problem.
Wondering if you two (and possibly others) would be interested in a call (or bay area meetup) to pursue solutions that create better player experience while also building social capital.
Director of Talent Acquisition @ formerly with Activision/MSFT
Hi Greg, Yes I definitely would be interested in a Bay area meetup or a call. Count me in!
Executive Director @ UnaMesa Association
Let's do it. Does July 7 work for you? (7/7 seems like an auspicious day to kick this off!)
Director of Talent Acquisition @ formerly with Activision/MSFT
Greg, Unfortunately I’m away for the week of July 4th. But interested when I return.
Executive Director @ UnaMesa Association
How about we start with an online meetup? Does Tue 7/11 work? Maybe early evening?
executive assistant @ Platform Venture Studio
excerpts:
https://www.axios.com/2023/06/07/pickleball-courts-padel
Founder, MD @ PivotNorth Capital
going to try pickleball for the first time this week to see what all the hype is about
CEO @ Quantbiome / Ombre
Let me know if you need some pointers, my middle name is "aggressive at the net". Love that this is a stream here.
executive assistant @ Platform Venture Studio
I am beyond excited to hear this, Tim! We need you onboard this runaway train with us. :)
Executive Director @ UnaMesa Association
Has Tim made any comments since he tried playing pickleball or did he get addicted and is now spending all his time on the courts?
executive assistant @ Platform Venture Studio
Greg, I think he has plans to play this upcoming weekend so we'll see. If I am wrong and he played this past weekend, we have a Schrodinger's situation -- probably still on the courts but remains to be revealed if he is injured or playing! :) I'm so hopeful that he is addicted!
VP, Global Product Management @ Forrester
A few other interesting part of this research
So the good news is that the number of pickleball courts total -- and in relation to the population -- is on the rise.
The problem is that this may exacerbate the problem of "we all tend to cluster in small pickleball bubbles, typically correlated with socio-economics."
The more courts that are built, the more likely people are to play at the ones closest to where they live, with other people who also live nearby, who tend to be like them.
If the options for playing pickleball are few, people from all walks of life (and pickleball attracts a huge variety) will congregate there and cross paths. But, when there are lots of options -- including the time/money to drive to nicer private facilities -- that decreases the likelihood of serendipitous connections across social groups, and makes it harder for people new to the sport to break in.
But like any good business opportunity, if the problem exists and is growing, that means the market size for a potential solution is growing too.
executive assistant @ Platform Venture Studio
Jeff, I love the insight you provide! I especially agree with your final statement. I have found pickleball to be a pretty fair equalizer in that people are searching for playing opportunities so they tend to go where the courts are. Your $200 paddle won't help you beat that $75 paddle unless you invest time and energy into learning and improving. In the interim, maybe folks will become friends ourside their socio-economic boxes? I've seen it working both ways. :)
Executive Director @ UnaMesa Association
I'm new to platform studio but I'm a community minded technologist/entrepreneur and avid pickleball player in the SF Bay Area.
In my mind, pickleball already exemplifies the type of civic engagement and community building that Robert Putnam highlights as the foundation of social capital in his book "Bowling Alone." Every day I go to the public courts I have meaningful interactions with folks outside of my normal spheres. All around I see social connections flourishing across age, race, social status, etc. Connections that, as Putnam documents, have become scarce in modern America. As a friend and long-time player shared with me in 2020 during the presidential election, the pickleball court was the one place you could go and not know (or care) whether the other folks on the court were voting red or blue.
For me, the key question has become how to build businesses that align with and strengthen these values? Are there business models which help drive civic engagement and grow social capital?
As pickleball grows and commercial enterprises rush into the space I worry that the predominant business models are crowding out those social values -- perhaps unintentionally so.
For example, most of our community pickleball courts were created through a kind of modern day barn-raising. Members of the community coming together to tape lines and set up temporary nets and/or spending countless hours working with local governments to eventually get permanent courts. Like barn raising, these efforts fostered a sense of community and reciprocity – and most importantly a space where everyone plays together.
Now private capital is rushing in to build private courts, most with monthly membership fees that price out large segments of the community. Members of those clubs may gain exclusive court time but they are likely to end up in the kinds of social bubbles identified in the statement of unmet needs above. Are those members losing opportunities to make social connections? Would they even know what they are missing? Are the folks excluded from membership losing out? Do these models represent a loss of social capital for our communities? Are there alternative models that grow social capital while creating profits for investors?
Similar questions arise when considering the business models that are emerging for Pickleball competitions (tournaments and associated software platforms), the pro leagues, court locators, and the many other related endeavors.
Personally, I believe the space is ripe for “pro-social” business models that reinforce pickleball’s culture of equality, engagement and social connectedness. (More on that in future posts, but this message is already too long for an introduction and I’m curious to hear the view of others.)
COO @ Volli Entertainment
Greg, very nicely written! The answer to your key questions is Yes. At Volli Entertainment, we building a non-membership based Ultratainment venue that designed to foster social connections and offer entertainment for the entire family. No more leaving your spouse or kids at home while you play Pickleball. We have a 25,000 sq ft children’s adventure park with inflatables, ropes course, slides, etc. On the other side of the wall, we offer (7) Pickleball courts, (2) Social Darts bays, (7) holes of Lucky Putt, (4) Golf Simulators, (2) corn hole lanes, massive TV wall for game watching, full upscale restaurant and bar, mezzanine with more gaming and full bar, and private meeting spaces for event planning. Check us out at:
www.vollientertainment.com
Executive Director @ UnaMesa Association
John, Volli sounds like a blast. Would be curious to learn more how you organize the play and whether you have any metrics or other ways of assessing social connectedness. Do you have open play or is it primarily individuals /groups reserving courts and/or leagues (league formation is a topic in and of itself!).
One small comment, the photos on the website suggest that the courts are 1) non-standard playing surfaces (e.g. the Richland hills photo looks like it's a hardwood floor, the Marysville photos look like painted concrete), and 2) very tight in terms of space, especially behind the baseline. Factors that would likely be detractors for the more competitive players.
COO @ Volli Entertainment
Thank you, Greg! I have not thought about metrics for social connectedness. I’m not sure how you would do that. Maybe we could give out Volli coins that patrons or employees are encouraged to give to anyone they see performing a random act of kindness. Or, if you meet a new person, you give them a coin. Anyone who receives a coin can use to purchase food or an item from the Pro Shop. Then, we can count the coins that are turned in every day. I’m sure this could be done digitally as well.
Open play is when individuals or groups reserve a court. Open play is available any time a court is not reserved for a league, clinic, or tournament.
The 3D renderings are not accurate representations. The courts will be painted with a special SportsMaster acrylic paint on concrete. The courts are 60’ long x 30’ wide, which is larger than I saw at a Lifetime Fitness pro circuit tournament. However, we are designing the courts for entertainment, not pro circuit tournament play.
Executive Director @ UnaMesa Association
Interesting. I would encourage you to view court time as a currency (especially since there's no marginal cost to you). For example, you could imagine having a good, entertaining game with folks you don't know and celebrating that by "buying" them court time similar to the way you might buy someone a drink at a bar.
And glad to hear the courts will have at least 10' clearance behind the baseline and 5' on the sides (that's still tight but playable, and hopefully the barriers are forgiving -- no steel beams to run into!). Also hoping the ceiling height is decent. And i'm not suggesting you should be designing for pro circuit play -- it's just that in my experience the "repeat business" is strongly dependent on a core group of very devoted players. Because they interact with so many other players, making a space that's attractive to them could help increase the audience and interest in the space.
COO @ Volli Entertainment
@Jack McMackin I’m building indoor Pickleball Ultratainment venues in WA and TX. Let me know how I can help you develop a new concept. How about a Pickkeball and Dog Park social concept?
https://vollientertainment.com/
General Partner @ Mission Innovation Network
Thanks, @John Oldham !
How are you thinking about court reservations?
If @Carol Alexander gets inspired by your website and this article:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/pickleball-travel-find-courts-resorts-91b6ec18?page=1
...and hops in her RV and heads towards Texas with her friends and family, how and what will they know about the Pickleball experience that awaits them? Could they help shape that experience?
COO @ Volli Entertainment
Jack, we are using Court Reserve for bookings. I see a lot of conversations about using technology to help people find open courts or match with other players. To find open courts using an app, you would have to have an api into Court Reserve and every other court booking software used in the local area. It would be daunting, unless you had a Waze like app where the players are constantly updating the app on the status of courts wherever they are. But that would not tell you anything about booked reservations all day.
General Partner @ Mission Innovation Network
It's interesting. Even in NYC, what looks like a community pickleball initiative (for demand generation) is run by one underlying scheduling system and partitioned by location.
www.city-pickle.com
www.playbypoint.com/
Looks like there is no OpenTable equivalent.
Founder @ Mission Innovation Network
Indoor courts in minutes:
https://pickleroll.com/
Court scheduling:
https://courtreserve.com/
executive assistant @ Platform Venture Studio
The roll out courts could open possibilities for bringing pickleball to gyms, rec centers, church family life centeres, empty storefronts, etc. to truly allow community building to happen organically. If you roll it out, they will come play.
executive assistant @ Platform Venture Studio
Surely there is a way to utilize these malls who are bringing in pickleball and 'building a community'?
https://www.bisnow.com/national/news/retail/pickleball-malls-experiential-118954
Vice President, Talent Acquisition @ Platform Venture Studio
https://www.pickleballgetaways.com/
executive assistant @ Platform Venture Studio
Pickleball is taking over everything!
executive assistant @ Platform Venture Studio
I have joined various Facebook pickleball groups as I am traveling in my #vanlife. I love seeing the charity tournaments that are popping up, expecially in the Mississippi Gulf Coast area. Doing good while playing the game -- raising awareness of the game and funds for the underserved!! They are well-organized and working together to get new courts, upgrades to existing courts, mentoring players, teaching newbies, and have even brought a group of military vets in to learn how to play. Keesler AFB is putting in pickleball courts as recreation. Those folks are intentionally bringing folks from their communities into the pickleball fold rather than playing clique-leball. It can be done!
Technology and National Security Fellow @ National Security Innovation Network
@Jack McMackin seems like accessibility is going to be key in democratizing the sport + onboarding as many people from as many places as possible. I'm thinking catchy/viral ad content --> free or low-cost tutorials --> platform to facilitate online-to-in-person networking. Excited to see what you come up with!
@ Trade Capital Partners
I'm working on building a private pickleball club business in Canada
Happy to connect
Founder @ Mission Innovation Network
Thanks, Mo! I'm sure the team will reach out.
executive assistant @ Platform Venture Studio
Jack, I think this is a fabulous idea! Here is an iinteresting infographic for those who aren't part of the pickleball craze ... yet. With this many participants across age and location demographics, community building is going on. Just need to harness the power and include those who truly need to belong to and benefit greatly from a group of people who believe 'community' is far-reaching and all-inclusive.
https://thepickleballplayer.com/pickleball-popularity-statistics-demographics-infographic/